The rebel.
Oil-packed or water-packed tuna? Can seafood be paired with cheese? Open- or closed-face?
Also, Molly and Declan call up our first winner of a year-supply of Cabot cheese!
Special thanks to our listeners for your questions—especially those who took the time to call in. Send your burning sandwich questions (not burning sandwich, you know what we mean) to podcasts@food52.com.
Molly Baz: Wait, before we start this episode, where is Tuna? Like, I feel like I need her. Do you have her?
Declan Bond: I was going to say, she's not in either of our closets.
Molly: That feels inappropriate given the episode that we are about to dive into. (shouting) Wikiman! Tuna!
Declan: (standing up) Ok, let me grab her.
Molly: And I think we are ready to go.
Mystical galactic voiceover: Peanut butter and jelly. Grilled cheese. Pastrami. Tuna salad. The Sandwich Universe.
Declan: Alright, welcome back to The Sandwich Universe, where everything is a sandwich.
Molly: And a sandwich is positively everything. I am one of your hosts, Molly Baz. I am a cookbook author, recipe developer, sandwich lover, and I'm joined here by one of my best friends, Declan Bond.
Declan: Hey everyone, I'm a sandwich enthusiast, a self-proclaimed sandwich critic, and a general representative for home cooks who loves sandwiches.
Molly: Who normally works in tech but dabbles in sandwich podcasts also.
Declan: (laughing) I do work in tech. Um, and we're on a mission to unearth all the brilliant aspects of ten amazing iconic sandwiches. Each episode, we're diving into a new sandwich with philosophical debate, listener call-ins and questions, and on this episode we're diving into a bit of an oddball in the sandwich universe: the tuna melt.
Molly: I don't think it's an oddball, just for starters.
Declan: What?!
Molly: I think it's like, weird that you think it is. I also feel like if BLT was kind of the sandwich that best represents your brand, tuna melt is the one that best represents mine.
Declan: What?! Wow! Ok. I mean, I guess, yeah.
Molly: I literally have a dog named Tuna. Like, could it get any more on-brand than?
Declan: I know. She is very melty, in her cuteness.
Molly: She's such a melty little weiner. Um, she's in here with us, um, cheering us on for this podcast. So yeah, I don't think it's obscure. I don't think it's an oddball. I actually think it's pretty classic. (laughing)
Declan: It's very classic.
Molly: Um, okay, so where to begin with this alleged oddball?
Declan: Well, let me just start by backing up my claim that the tuna melt is an oddball. I feel like of all the sandwiches, a tuna melt is just this like, weird bundle of contradictions in a sandwich. And I mean, there's a few really obvious ones. One, you know, it's a hot sandwich, but it's a fish salad, which is like, what is going on with that already? Um, It's also a pairing of fish and cheese, which I feel like is just, you know, very uncommon. Um, it's usually, I feel like reserved for uh, anchovies and like some kind of aged cheese is like the combination that is most recognizable in the culinary world, but you don't really get a lot of cheddar and, you know, fish combos. Um, but it's really brilliant. It's a brilliant sandwich. It also feels it has this very 1950's diner, uh, you know, lunch counter vibe, as if it was something you would find in The Joy of Cooking cookbook or something. It's like the era of the tuna casserole and things like this, but it has still had some kind of staying power, because it's so, you know, easy and delicious, in a way, you know what I mean?
Molly: Yeah, it's like, it's the sandwich that kind of defies all of the rules and regulations that we as culinary professionals impose upon ourselves when we create recipes. And I think that's why I like it. I think I like that people are like, "Eugh, hot tuna? Yughh! With cheese? Yuuuuck!" And it's like, yeah, but no, but actually it works, and I'm sorry that, I'm sorry to say that it works. Sorry, not sorry once again.
Declan: But that's, that's what I mean. It's a rebel, it's a rebel sandwich.
Molly: It is a rebel. And it's retro, and that's part of its charm. And I feel like most people order tuna melts out at diners, like you said. In fact, actually, um, as I was looking up the history of this sandwich, I learned that it came to be, allegedly, in Charleston, South Carolina at a place called Woolworth's, which was like a dinery lunch counter on King Street. And supposedly a diner asked for a grilled cheese sandwich with a smear of mayo. Like, that was the order. But then there was a bowl of tuna salad perched nearby above the griddle, and it fell over.
Declan: Oh! A mythical fall. The fall! (laughing)
Molly: It fell onto the grilled cheese. (laughing) Yeah, the great fall, and, and then all of a sudden the tuna just like plopped onto the grilled cheese, and, and the diner, and the guy who ran the restaurant was like--
Declan: Sorry 'bout it!
Molly: --asked the diner, like, "Would you rather me, would you rather me re-fire this, sir?" And the good sir said, "No, I shall try it." And thus was born the tuna melt. (laughing) Which, like, let's be honest, that didn't happen.
Declan: That did not happen. Um, but I do love a good sandwich origin myth.
Molly: It's a gorgeous story. (laughing)
Declan: That's a pretty good one. I actually also discovered a few things while I was researching for this podcast episode, and it's pretty remarkable. So in the US, guess how many pounds of canned tuna Americans eat?
Molly: (sighing) This again, these like, obscure...
Declan: One billion pounds.
Molly: Oh, okay. That feels like a lot. Like, I don't really know much about numbers, but I know that one billion is big.
Declan: That feels big. That stat is big. A billion is big.
Molly: But wait, canned tuna, not fresh tuna?
Declan: Canned and pouched. I haven't really encountered much pouched, but canned.
Molly: Oh yeah yeah yeah, they put 'em in pouches now.
Declan: It's like three pounds a year for the average American. Pretty good.
Molly: Oh, oh, I definitely eat more than that. I eat a can a week, and a can is four ounces. So at that rate, how many pounds am I eating a year? I'm eating one pound a month. So I'm eating twelve pounds a year.
Declan: Okay, wow.
Molly: That's a lot of mercury. Yikes. Yoikes.
Declan: Yoikes. Um, now, mind you, this stat as well as the ones to follow are from National Fisheries Institute, an extremely biased publication. So...(laughing) who knows.
Molly: As always, we're consulting the most biased of all publications for our stats. You can expect that here.
Declan: So check this out, over half of canned tuna, 52%, is used in what preparation? Sandwiches, of course!
Molly: (laughing) Okay.
Declan: Which is pretty, yeah, it makes sense, right? Tuna salad sandwiches.
Molly: Yeah, but what's happening with the rest?
Declan: Well, that's pretty, that's pretty remarkable. That means one billion pounds, 500 million pounds are used in sandwiches every year. 22% used in salads, 15% used in casseroles, which I was like, "Really, casseroles?"
Molly: Mmmm.
Declan: Uh, and then yeah, 7.5% elsewhere...
Molly: Wow, okay. That's an interesting pie chart. So honestly, Americans fuck with tuna. Canned tuna.
Declan: (laughing) Americans really fuck with tuna.
Molly: That's kind of the bottom line here, ourselves included. Let me ask you a question. Do you love a tuna melt, like, in your heart of hearts, Declan?
Declan: Yes, I do. Um, it's, it's, again, it's, it's a bit of a rebel sandwich. It's kind of, it's not the first thing I reach for, but there is definitely a moment when I want a tuna sandwich. Um, and I think it has to do with its--its--I mean, it's funny you told the story about where it came from. I would have said that it was like a spin-off of the patty melt or something like that, because I feel like--
Molly: No, no, it just--a bowl of tuna toppled off the top shelf of the griddle, and landed on a grilled cheese. (laughing)
Declan: (laughing) Yeah, and did you know that the history of the patty melt is actually a little bit of ground beef just toppled onto a grilled cheese sandwich. (laughing)
Molly: (laughing) Different diner, mind you.
Declan: Yeah, right. Um, but yeah, I feel like it's a lighter version of that same spirit with the tuna versus like a patty melt style thing.
Molly: It really is. It's a pescetarian patty melt, if you will.
Declan: Yeah. Yeah.
Molly: I love that. It's a nice way to think about it. Well, I also get down with the tuna melt. I will say, and maybe we will talk about this later. But I have also a lot of love and respect for just a classic cold tuna salad sandwich. And we talked about whether this episode should be the tuna salad sandwich episode or the tuna melt episode. And we went with the tuna melt episode because A, it felt more iconic, B, it felt like there was like, more kind of like, contentious debate around the sandwich.
Declan: Yeah, It's a bigger question mark, for sure.
Molly: It is. And C, we kind of, we wanted to tackle a different kind of sandwich, which was one that was like a mash up of a cold salad sandwich with a hot grilled cheese sandwich. So that's what this is.
Declan: Yeah. I feel like all the, you know, these like salad sandwiches. Like, when you look at the histories, they just kind of all center around, like, we invented mayo and then we started just like, bathing everything in mayo and putting it in bread.
Molly: Totally. Okay, so I think we've established the importance of the tuna melt. So let's take some questions after a quick break.
(midroll)
Molly: Our first question regarding the tuna melt is coming in from @jaspermile, and the question is: "Water or oil-based tuna?" I have strong, strong feelings about this. But if you want to field it before I go in...?
Declan: I actually don't have strong feelings. But I just want to guess your strong feelings. Um, I'm guessing--I could be totally wrong. I'm--this is a total shot in the dark. I'm guessing that you have a strong bias for oil-based tuna.
Molly: Bingo bango! (laughing)
Declan: Woo!
Molly: Um, yeah, I feel like, I actually don't know why water-packed tuna is a thing, why it exists, who invented it, why people keep buying it. It is an inferior product.
Declan: I feel like it's got to do with like--
Molly: It's health conscious!
Declan: I agree with that, but I feel like it's got to do--yeah, health consciousness, I was going to say.
Molly: But like come on, a little bit of olive oil is not going to kill you. In fact, hello, anybody ever heard about the Mediterranean diet? Apparently you're supposed to like, drink olive oil. So here's the thing about oil-packed versus water-packed tuna. Water packed tuna is just inherently dry. It's sitting in water, which means all of its seasoning is through osmosis being sucked out of it and into the water that it's suspended in, and there's no kind of like, luxurious, fatty anything that's sort of insulating it. Whereas with olive oil-packed tuna, you get a much richer, more tender tasting tuna. Because it's--think about how long it's sitting in that oil and sort of just like, it's cooked in it, and then it's marinating in it.
Declan: It's confited.
Molly: It's confited, and confit is one of the great preparations of all time, which is like, a fish poached in oil. And so I think above all else, you could debate what brands make the best canned tuna for hours. For me, it really comes down to, is it packed in water or is it packed in oil? And if it's packed in oil, is it packed in olive oil versus like a neutral oil, vegetable oil type of thing? Something with flavor where we're adding flavor.
Declan: Yeah, wait, that that I also don't know, you like olive oil?
Molly: Of course. And so if nothing else and you're at the grocery store and you are shopping for canned tuna, just focus in on the oil-packed varieties. Pretty much every brand makes an oil-packed tuna as well as the water-packed. And there's just, you have no business purchasing any water-packed tuna.
Declan: Just as a quick follow up, how do you feel about like, I feel like some of the fancy brands are tuna fillets rather than just like normal old tuna in a can. Um, what is your take on this?
Molly: You know, there's obviously like, a big market of like, high-quality fancy tinned fish. You can get like tuna belly, which I think is called tuna ventresca, and tuna loin, and all different parts of the tuna. My feeling is if you're making tuna salad, which is, you know, which means you are mashing it up, you're adding in mayonnaise, you're adding in a bunch of other different ingredients, really kind of like diluting the quality of it--
Declan: Yeah, like, why go crazy?
Molly: It's just not worth spending $12.99 for a four ounce can. I don't think you should buy a 49 cent can necessarily. But again, I really think the most important thing is that it be oil-packed because that's going to really move mountains when it comes to the kind of moisture content and richness of your tuna salad.
Declan: Yeah. It also just feels intuitive, like when you're making a hot thing, to not have it be--like a hot salad thing, to have it be more oily, and that oil is going to like, seep into the bread and help crisp it and...
Molly: Yeah, you're gonna add water in there? Like, that's sogtown USA.
Declan: (laughing) Sog it up.
Molly: So that's the tea on that.
Declan: Alright, next, we have a very pertinent question from Mauceri21, who asks: "Every tuna melt I've ever had tastes like dookie. What's up with that?" (laughing)
Molly: Isn't it pronounced duckie?
Declan: "Duckie?" No, it's definitely dookie.
Molly: Oh. (laughing)
Declan: Um, when I saw this question, I uh, it kind of like, dawned on me that yeah, like I feel like a lot of people, uh, just think of a tuna melt as just this like, gross sandwich. I talked to a couple of friends about tuna melts before this, and a lot of them were just like, kind of outright, like, "No." And then I Googled uh, "tuna melt gross." And I went down a rabbit hole after seeing this incredible senator's viral video where a U.S. senator named Mark Warner makes an incredibly wild, repulsive tuna melt sandwich. (laughing) Um, it was like, a viral video. I'm just gonna read some headlines from the articles that were written. "Senator Mark Warren leaves people baffled with tuna melt recipe. I am screaming."
Molly: (laughing) I am, I honestly am screaming. (screams)
Declan: Senator, I'm screaming. "Senator Mark Warren's tuna melt is an insane atrocity, and I for one salute it."
Molly: Oh, ok!
Declan: "What is the deal with Mark waters haunted tuna sandwich?" And then finally Kamala Harris actually went and made a video explaining how to make a tuna melt in response to it.
Molly: Properly. Because just to clarify for anyone who didn't watch the viral video, his tuna melt consisted of two slices of Wonder bread slathered in an exorbitant amount of mayo. He cracked open a can of Chicken of the Sea, didn't drain it, dumped it right on top of the mayonnaise, mashed it into the mayonnaise on the bread. Put two slices American cheese on it, put the two slices of bread together and threw it in the microwave for 30 seconds and called it a day. Like, I'm sorry.
Declan: (laughing) It's really, it's giving a bad name to tuna melts.
Molly: It really is. So maybe, perhaps I guess what you're saying here is, if your, if your tuna melts taste like dookie, then maybe you're making them the wrong way and maybe you should be following a Kamala approach, which is a proper tuna melt approach.
Declan: Yes.
Molly: Or tune in for the rest of this pod and we'll help you out.
Declan: Yeah, I mean, all to say that yeah, it's in the preparation. I mean, you know, you can make a sandwich in any, anyway, or any sandwich and make it really poorly. I do, I do think that the tuna melt is a particularly sensitive one. It needs a very particular touch. Um, can't just, can't just throw it in the microwave and call it a day.
Molly: Nah, you can't. Okay, here's another one coming in from @anna_lapaz_collins, and she says, "Is it best on rye?" And then in parentheses, "(the answer is yes)." I'm going to go ahead and agree with her.
Declan: Yeah, I'm going to flat out agree. I think it's the classic preparation. Um, I do like the kind of bitter seediness of--what's the actual seed in rye?
Molly: Caraway.
Declan: Caraway. I really think that complements it well. But is there any alternative that you've had or thought of that could be good? I've seen it on buns before.
Molly: I mean, duh, a sesame sourdough.
Declan: Sesame sourdough, okay.
Molly: It would be a great alternative.
Declan: It's true.
Molly: English muffins are like a classic, you know, tuna melt. It wouldn't be the first thing I went for. Um, I do think in our grilled cheese episode, we toyed around with the idea of a rye bread. We didn't ultimately land on it, but this feels like this is the moment for the rye bread. I think we've both kind of been thinking about, talking about rye for some time now, and, and, and trying to figure out like, what is the sandwich that's going to absolutely require rye bread? And I think we found it.
Declan: Rye is also this like funny alt bread that doesn't get a lot of action, but it's really great. And so it feels like it's kinda nice, nicely paired with the radical rebellious tuna melt.
Molly: Yes, it's totally aligned with the rest of the ingredients. (laughing) Um, well, this brings us into our next question, actually. Do you want to take it, Dec?
Declan: Alright. So next question comes from @oliviapau, who asks, "Open faced or closed?
Molly: This is like, actually a really important question. Do you realize how important this is?
Declan: I mean, it's a tough one, because we've, we've said before many times that as part of the kind of global definition of a sandwich, it's got to be between two slices of bread. But when, you know, I've, I've heard a lot about, you know, people just being like, "Yeah, well, a tuna melt just comes on, on, you know, comes open-faced, it should be broiled, not griddled." Um, but that just feels like it's not really true. Like, most tuna melts that I've had have been closed-faced, and it's part of the definition of a sandwich.
Molly: Ugh, I'm really torn on this one. I actually developed a recipe for a tuna melt recently and it was open-faced, and people were up in arms. Like, half of the, half of my community was like, "Hell yeah, open face for life." And then the other half was like, "That is not a tuna melt." It's so polarizing.
Declan: It's a polarizing sandwich on all fronts.
Molly: And I would just say, I think for the sake of this podcast, because we have just defined a sandwich as something between two slices of bread, we're going to have to close it up. But I also think from an eatability standpoint, which is something that's really important to us on this podcast, and something that we consider a lot, closed-face is easier. Open-face is a knife and fork kind of sandwich. And um, that's not really the type of sandwich that we are investigating here on, on The Sandwich Universe.
Declan: Yeah. So I guess the verdict is it's got to be closed. Sorry.
Molly: It's got to be closed, but also, if you are viscerally opposed to the idea of a closed tuna melt, we respect that. And we would just offer the idea that maybe you should just prepare it open-faced. Like, take all of the rest of the information that we provide you in this episode, and then just like don't put that extra slice on top, and throw it under the broiler.
Declan: (laughing) But the problem is that I feel like when you griddle a tuna melt, you really get the, you know, the effect that you're looking for. Uh, you know--
Molly: Yeah. That burnished crust, and...
Declan: That crunch on the outsides, with, with you know, kind of a, you know, gooey, um, you know, tunafish salad mix in the center, which, you know, this is one of the sandwiches that has the, kind of, the center is a relatively uniform texture. And if you are missing--even, you know, 50--well, I guess it's a lot, but missing, you know, a whole slice of bread, 50% of your crunch is is taken away from you. So, you know. I think closed, but live your life.
Molly: Alright, next up coming in from @alexis_chavinko: "Can there ever be too much mayo?" If you ask me, the answer is yes. This is the--a great tuna salad is a sort of fine, delicate balance between the core of the salad, which is the shredded tuna, mayonnaise, which is what's giving it like, richness and mouth feel and fattiness, and then acid, which could come in different forms, in the form of pickles or lemon juice. It's a balance of those three things. If you add too much mayo, and especially in the case of a tuna melt, you're going--when you heat that tuna melt, you are going to have mayo seepage all over your skillet. And so there is an appropriate amount of mayonnaise. But beyond that, I think this get this question kind of gets to the heart of, of the sandwich, which is what makes a great tuna salad itself, apart from the cheese, apart from the fact that it's a melt. And what kind of things are we adding into our tuna salad? So I feel like that's kind of where we should go with this.
Declan: Yeah, I think there's just so many--because you can't have tuna salad with just mayo and tuna. It needs a lot.
Molly: No. The senator was very, very wrong. (laughing)
Declan: (laughing) The honorable senator.
Molly: Yeah.
Declan: I think, you know there's a, there's a ton of different possibilities. I'm thinking about parsley, I'm thinking about scallions, I'm thinking about pickles, I'm thinking about chili, I'm think--
Molly: I'm thinkin' about dill! I'm never not thinking about dill.
Declan: I'm thinking about dill, I'm thinking about celery, which is another--okay, so celery is a big question. I think in normal tuna salad it's an obvious choice. It's, it's one of those aspects of the tuna melt that gets a little bit--again, kind of just like, a weird contradiction. Like, you want to add celery for the crisp crunch, but then you're about to heat up all that celery, which feels weird.
Molly: I just don't feel like it's ever going to get hot enough to like, cook the celery. But I do hear you that in the context of a tuna melt, it's not maybe necessarily crucial in terms of adding texture, because we've already got really textural crunchy bread on the outside. That said, I really love celery, like, all the time, in all of its applications, and I do think it belongs in a tuna salad, just from a flavor standpoint. Like, it's a really iconic flavor pairing, celery, mayonnaise, and tuna, and so if you love celery, I recommend finally chopping it and tossing it through. That said, I think herbs are something that kind of get overlooked in classic American tuna salad, and it can be such a--can, can really brighten and lift and bring a lot of, kind of like, nuance to tuna salad that's sometimes not there.
Declan: Yeah, it makes it a little bit elevated in its, yeah, flavors.
Molly: It's a little fancy.
Declan: She fancy.
Molly: She pretty fancy. And so if you ask me, that should be dill. Um, but if you want to put parsley, that's cool too. Even basil. Like, I don't know.
Declan: Parsley is kind of big. Maybe, maybe parsley's too big.
Molly: I mean, you could chop it, though.
Declan: Uh, unless you really chiffonade it very finely.
Molly: Oh, look at you, dropping some knowl.
Declan: Ooookay.
Molly: (laughing) Do you chiffonade?
Declan: Okay. (laughing) I chiffonade here and there.
Molly: Yeah, I mean I chiff.
Declan: What about pickles?
Molly: Hell yeah!
Declan: Right? It's an obvious one.
Molly: Like, are you crazy?
Declan: That's a gimme. Those are table stakes. Get some pickles in there.
Molly: Yeah. I mean we love pickles, but I chop my pickles up and I put them right in, because like I said, it's about finding a balance between fat and acid in the tuna itself, and pickles are a great way to introduce acid to the tuna without introducing more liquid, which is kind of the enemy of like a tight sandwich. The other thing that I really like to add is some kind of onion, something in the onion family, whether that be scallions, or I sometimes do shallot, or if you don't have shallot, red onion.
Declan: Shal-lots!
Molly: We love a shal-lot. I would say like, I'm pretty open on that front. I don't think we need to be super prescriptive about which allium you choose. Just let there be an allium presence. And then beyond that, in the, in the tuna salad itself, mustard. Dijon mustard is a must for me. It's a must-ard for me. (laughing)
Declan: Ha-ha. Um, what about--once I had, uh, malt vinegar.
Molly: Oooh!
Declan: Which was an interesting, uh, interesting flavor to add.
Molly: I like that.
Declan: It was kind of cool. And then I was, I was talking to a friend who mentioned mustard and malt vinegar as like a, like mixed, as like a side sauce to the tuna melt.
Molly: (gasping) I loooove that. Actually, a lot of people were calling, were writing in, being like, "Do you dip your tuna melt though"? And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, because no, normally I don't.
Declan: Mm. That's what they dip it in. Well, that's what my friend Andrew dips it in.
Molly: I am here for that. I love that. I think a little bit of Dijon in the salad, maybe it's malt vinegar in the salad too, or maybe--I oftentimes just do lemon. Like I think that's nice and fresh, or just some of the pickle brine. You don't need a ton of it because if you're adding a lot of chopped pickles, that should be good. Um, but then I love the idea of like a spicy vinegary dipping condiment. Yum. Another thing I sometimes put in, which I think that you will mess around with, Declan, is hot sauce.
Declan: Yeah. I like the tanginess and obviously the heat. Um, which also leads us to the question of whether or not you just put straight up chili in, you know, to give it some other heat. And I think that's another one where it's like, if you like heat, I think a little bit of chili in there is cool. I've even imagined putting pickled jalapenos in there.
Molly: Mmmm. Oh, that's fun. Like you chop those up instead of dill pickles. I like that. I honestly feel like in some ways, it--it's unnecessary to add heat to classic tuna salad, but when it comes to a tuna melt, where there's cheese and there--we're grilling it in a bunch of fat and it's just, it's a much fattier, richer sandwich, the added bite from something spicy pickly is very, very welcome. And so I feel like maybe in the context of the sandwich that we end up creating together, we do like half pickles and half pickled jalapenos in our actual tuna salad. Okay, how do you feel about tomatoes on the sandwich?
Declan: You know, I--it's not really, it's not traditional, but I'm not mad at it. The only question is, are tomatoes just generally too watery? Like, if you get a really juicy nice tomato, does it add too much water, and then if you've, if you've decided to go down the route of adding a tomato, do you add it--and we talked about this in the grilled cheese episode. But do you add it before you cook your grilled cheese, or your tuna melt? Uh, and kind of let the tomato get cooked in with it? Or do you cook your tuna melt, open that puppy up, throw a couple slices of tomato in there and then close up at the end.
Molly: (sighing) You know how I feel about that, which is, I'm stressed. Like, that's the most stressful proposition. But I, I do feel like I don't--given that a tuna melt already tends towards water, moisture loss, and release into the skillet, and it's like, it's a wet sandwich, I don't think we're doing ourselves any favors by adding tomato slices right in there. I like the little bit of sweetness that it gives, but I'm, I'm tempted to just say like, it's kind of working against you in a tuna melt unfortunately.
Declan: Yeah.
Molly: And honestly, that's kind of big of us, because we love tomatoes when they're right. Like there are, there are few sandwiches that I don't appreciate a great tomato in when the tomatoes are great. But this one feels like it's an uphill battle.
Declan: Yeah, agreed. I think this brings us to the last question, which is from @olewallen, who asks, "What is the correct cheese?" Very Jeopardy. (laughing)
Molly: Is it extra sharp cheddar?
Declan: From Cabot Creamery?
Molly: That's my Jeopardy response, get it?
Declan: (laughing) Oh yeah, yeah. "What is Cabot Creamery extra sharp Vermont?"
Molly: Oh shit, it's not "is it"? Oh my God, I totally fucked that up. (laughing)
Declan: You lost, you lost all the points. 2000 points.
Molly: Damn it! "What is extra sharp cheddar" is the correct answer. (laughing)
Declan: I think--yeah, I mean cheddar is so traditional and classic, it does feel right. Um, and it's--it's, again one of those weird anomalies where it's like, there's no other context where I would put cheddar cheese with fish. I don't think in the whole, you know?
Molly: Mmm, I've seen it with like a fried fish sandwich with like tartar sauce, American cheese, but that's a very specific thing, and I honestly can't really see you eating.
Declan: Ooh, even that, even that, I'm like, yeah, I'm stressed now.
Molly: Yeah, this is honestly getting really stressful. (laughing)
Declan: But is there any other alternative to cheddar that is worth considering?
Molly: Um...uh...no. (laughing) I don't think so.
Declan: I mean, we're grasping here, but--
Molly: I think the only obvious one would be American, but I'm just like, no, no. It's cheddar.
Declan: No, no, no. You need the sharpness, again, to, to--you know, you don't need more melty gooey mellowness to envelope your tuna salad.
Molly: Nah, you've got plenty of that. But here's something about the cheddar, actually, that I think is important. When you're assembling the sandwich, and let's say, like, we're looking at two slices of bread. Um, for me it's mayonnaise on the outside, as I do with grilled cheese. But if you want to put butter on the outside or oil, like, do you. Top to bottom, we're looking at bread, tuna, cheddar, bread, and then that last side with the cheddar is going down in the skillet because it's closest to the heat source and it will heat up, and kind of the name of the game with the tuna melt is like, how quickly can we melt this cheese and brown this bread without totally cooking the tuna inside? Because I don't think there's anyone out there that would, would declare that they actually prefer hot tuna salad.
Declan: Interesting. So your goal--because I wouldn't have expected, I--I think of the tuna melt as a thoroughly hot sandwich. Like, there's no cool tuna in the center that's being enveloped by hot melty cheese and two pieces of grilled bread. And the other thing is, I'm surprised that cheese is only going on one side. I would have thought it's, you know, from the top down, bread, cheese, tuna, cheese, bread. A palindrome of...(laughing)
Molly: No, it's not a grilled cheese, it's a tuna, it's a tuna sandwich. It's the same concept as the BLT where it's a tomato sandwich, add a little bit of bacon. A tuna melt is a tuna sandwich, add a little bit of cheese. And it's like, I want to celebrate the tuna in the tuna melt. For me. And so there's not cheese on both sides, because then that would require four slices of cheese which is a lot of cheese. And yes, I, I, I agree with you. It's not a cold sandwich, it's never going to be a cold sandwich, but I don't think it needs to be a piping hot sandwich either. Like, there's a middle ground where the interior part of the sandwich in the middle of that tuna is warm, and it's not steaming--
Declan: Mm. Ripping hot, yeah.
Molly: And there's like, juicing out everywhere. And you can even go so far as to lay a slice of bread into the skillet, mayo side down, put some cheddar on there, give it a jump start of melting, and then build your sandwich on top of it before flipping it, and then flip it. And that way the tuna is kind of being added after the melting fact and you're really only in the skillet to brown the outsides. And so if you're the type of person that's like, "I just cannot get behind hot tuna salad," that would be the answer for you.
Declan: Yeah.
Molly: Tuna, by the way, has now climbed up me and she's now licking my face. So I think that she's here for it. She's like, "Mom, go off." (laughing)
Declan: She's like, "Welcome to my TED Talk." (laughing)
Molly: Welcome to the Tuna universe. I think those are all of the questions that we really need to answer today. So Dec, it is time for us to conceptualize our ultimate tuna melt sandwich. So let's go. From the outside in.
Declan: Let's build this singer. Okay, so we said rye.
Molly: We did say rye.
Declan: I think that's, that's the, that's the bread of choice here.
Molly: Do you want to do butter or do you want to do mayo on the outside?
Declan: I want to do butter. I do. Because I feel like there's so much mayo already being used in the tuna fish salad. The butter feels like the right counterpart here.
Molly: Okay, I respect that fully. I really do.
Declan: Okay. Nice. We're on a roll here. Okay, cheese. We've said extra sharp sharp cheddar.
Molly: Extra sharp cheddar. Thin, even slices on the, on the bottom side of the bread. And then let's talk about the tuna salad, the real hero of this sandwich. Oh! Something I really wanted to mention, and that we can talk about now. When it comes to making the tuna salad, and let's just say we're talking oil-packed tuna, some kind of allium. Do you want to go scallion or shallot?
Declan: I was going to say shallot. I like onion a lot, and I like shallots.
Molly: Okay, let's do shallot. I love shallots, I love shallots. Okay, we're going to do finely chopped shallots. We're going to do finely chopped jalapenos and dill pickles, right? For the pickly briney moment.
Declan: Mmhmm. 50-50 blend.
Molly: 50-50 blend. We're going to do a big dollop of Dijon. Maybe a little bit of the pickle brine or the jalapeno pickle brine, depending on just like, how saucy everything's feeling, and then mayonnaise. But here's what I want to talk about. I think the key to a tuna salad that really like, keeps its shape and feels uniform and like a mass, versus a bunch of chunky tuna suspended in mayonnaisey liquid, is to really, really mash the shit out of the tuna salad. So taking a fork and like, work it!
Declan: Yeah, you really got to fluff it up.
Molly: But honestly, like, I don't--you should not be able to really discern any single piece of tuna. A really nicely emulsified tuna salad will have broken down, almost to a pâté kind of state.
Declan: Yeah, it's like, it's going to sound not so nice, but it, it is, like it is like a whiskery--it's like a bunch of whiskers that's like, become a mass.
Molly: It is so nice! Whiskery! Yes. And I think that will make all the difference in the world when it comes to the spillage question.
Declan: Yeah, and eatability. Just keeping it a tight mass.
Molly: Okay, so that's the general sandwich. Do you want to add anything else to it?
Declan: I honestly feel like the--well, we're going to have pickles in the thing. You're talking about pickle planks now.
Molly: Like pickle planks, but I kind of feel like, let's keep the pickles and the jalapenos in the tuna salad, and then let's have extra pickles on the side, duh.
Declan: Yeah, we'll just have some pickles on the side as always. Table stakes.
Molly: Table stakes.
Declan: And I think we should keep it kind of tradish.
Molly: I think so too.
Declan: Like, this is, this is a good, strong variation.
Molly: Of a classic.
Declan: Of a classic, and being the rebel that it is, I want to really, you know, honor that.
Molly: And of course there's dill in the tuna salad, but like, I think that goes without saying at this point.
Declan: We'll have to be pretty heavy handed with the deal to get it through, because there's a lot going on.
Molly: That will be no problem. Two, three pounds should be fine. (laughing)
Declan: (laughing) Yeah, we'll need several plants, full dill plants.
Molly: Yeah, you know me. Just one last thing. I want to make sure that we have our mustard and malt vinegar dipping sauce on the side.
Declan: Yes.
Molly: Um, and that's the sandwich and I am ready to eat it. But before we do that, we probably have to go shopping. So I'm gonna make a shopping list. Catch ya back in the kitchen and we will build this melt.
(musical interlude)
Molly: Tuna? Melt!
Declan: Tuna melt!
Molly: I'm excited.
Declan: Back in the kitch, let's make a sandwich.
Molly: Let's make a sandwich. I'm cracking. I'm draining. I'm gonna throw them in a bowl. In the meantime, you want to start shopping stuff?
Declan: Let's chop celery.
Molly: Let's chop some celery. Mmm, this looks like nice tuna. I'm going to take a big dollop of mayonnaise into this bowl of drained tuna. A big spoon of mustard, and I'm going to work it. Like, my arm better be tired at the end of this. Ok, do you like this technique where I'm kind of like, patting it in circles? I'm twirling the bowling in circles and I'm using the bottom of my fork to mash it all together and it's really helping shred it up.
Declan: Yeah, you want, you want shredded tuna.
Molly: Yes! How come nobody talks about that?
Declan: Shredded tuna sandwich.
Molly: It's already getting so good. Look at it.
Declan: Oh yeah, lemme do a little whiskers. That's what you're looking for, those little tuna whiskers.
Molly: And then you can kind of eyeball how much mayonnaise you need, because it's like, not suspended in mayonnaise, It's sort of like, one with the mayonnaise. And then chopped pickles and chopped pickled jalapenos.
Declan: Coming up.
Molly: Black pepp going in. (pepper grinding sounds) I'm adding a little pickle brine in. What a lovely sound. (laughing) Tuna slaps.
Declan: Tuna slaps.
Molly: Okay, do we feel close?
Declan: I think we're close. Do you want to use a vegetable peeler on this block of cheddar cheese, or do you mind if I just cut it like a normal human? (laughing)
Molly: You can cut it, it's fine, whatever. (laughing) Okay, butter, you can do a little butter in the skillet. I'm assembling now. I'm putting a little swath of Dijon on the inside of the sandwich. Going rogue. Ready for me? Coming in for the skillet.
Declan: Alright, drop it.
Molly: I'm going to squeegee.
Declan: Squeegee. Alright, turn the heat down.
Molly: Yep. And let's leave it uncovered for now. Oh baby, I could not have done it more perfectly myself. Oof. Let's fucking go, tuna melt.
Declan: Let's go, tuna melt!
(musical interlude)
Molly: Ok, here we go.
Declan: Tuna melt.
Molly: Going down. It's a really proper looking sandwich.
Declan: Ok, well, which side are you going on the downside? Are you going to cheese on the downside?
Molly: (laughing) Um, yeah.
Declan: Yeah, me too.
Molly: Went for the corner.
Declan: Tuna! (dog squeaking sounds)
Molly: The butter fried rye bread is like, stupendous.
Declan: I love this sandwich.
Molly: This is an icon.
Declan: It's, yeah. It's just weird and rebellious. It's gotta have heat. Gonna have lots of acid.
Molly: Mmm. Lots of yummy pickly things in that salad, and then lots of butter and crispy fried exteriors on that rye, and your sharp chedd. Big, what's up next?
Declan: Another iconic 50s-era vibe sandwich.
Molly: Another humble sandwich.
Declan: Another humble sandwich.
Molly and Declan: The egg salad.
Molly: So we'll see you back here.
Declan: Special thanks to Cabot Creamery, our presenting sponsor, the Food52 Podcast Network, and Coral Lee for producing our podcast, and Jeffrey Brodsky for our theme music. See you next week.
Molly: See you next time!